setok, nolars , I know the language that made your crappy c-lanuage! the language used to extend your fucking lame langueages! the language that was the original and fastest language! the language without bugs! the language that always make compact programs! the only language that can make speedy stuff! the language which is needed to compile your shitty things!!! :) > Zynx: sorry, but I don't agree with half of that. :( Setok, nolars and the language is called : "ASSEMBLY!!" :))) or "Machinecode!" nolars you have to - because it is all true/facts nolars ever seen a cpu based on c? :))))) nolars hehe nolars well - your C language wouldnt exist without machine language now - woudl it? :) nolars your C programs compile to slow machine code programs . your C program was written in assembly :) nolars a C program will never be faster than a machine code program in performance. Zynx: depends on the situation and how the C code was programmed. At it's best C is just as fast > Zynx: asm is not efficien - in the sense of prodictivity nolars who cares? I need fast stuff - cause I dont buy a new machine to run a new version of silly windows or whatever prog. Zynx: a lot of windows etc. programs are bad C code aswell > Zynx: window? who needs 'em? That's overhead, right?????!?!? when the C programs get slower and bigger the pc-owners buy new machines zynx: well you wouldn't have Devpac without C. No TOS to run it on nolars you would too.. it is just that atari dont make new machines.. so you have to tolerate that your programs get slower as they grow in size :) Setok the first assembler was written in asm! and the first C was written in asm! we will all be threaded in the end... brb.. > Zynx: Why should a program get slow because it gets bigger? Hi everyone! Zynx: yes, but you still wouldn't have Devpac without C Zynx> nolars my point is that Asm is better than C - but you need some more time writing it. Yeah, ASM is more low-level. > Zynx: ah - there we have something.. asm is hard to compare to other languages. It is THE language in a way. Everything is compiled to machine code anyway Nolars mainly because C jumps forward and backward in mem like crazy! try debugging any large C program > Zynx: that's the first good statement in some time from you. Zynx: depends on the C compiler and the structurer of the C program nolars well - I have this hate for C you know :)) nolars C programs get slower anyway.. cause lotsa code that isnt needed is kept in the compiled version of your program because all the C commands are universal - and not specialized. zynx, have you ever been coding on a heavy pipelined processor? zzynx, hmm.. well.. have a pipeline of 9 stages... then go asm.. heh that will be lots of un =) un = fun =) > reddie: That's another good point! [2] nolars on #atari (+nt) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nolars hah! matured a bit! hah! :) My point is that C can never beat asm in performance. that is the only thing I want you to agree to :) hell if you want performance, use microcode.... > zynx: "perform" what? 100K code in a week? less? reddie true- but asm programs always end up faster - and for games it is really worth it nomatter how many pipeline stages you have. be a real man! build the pgm out of hardware! ziggy hear hear! :) zynx, well, not ALWAYS faster... but it is possible to make it faster... zynx, make a good compiler and it will ba as fast in every case Zynx: asm programs do not always end faster. It depends on the coder's skills reddie that was all I wanted you to agree to :) zynx: get an alu, some PLA's.. then your talking speed! ( and a lot of work ) zynx, read the last row too =) Setok well - I bet I can add do gouraud shading in asm faster than it can be done in C without inline assembly :) reddie true - but they are never satisfying :) why not have a code contest...see whos faster, C, asm, forth, etc.... Setok subtract the word add from my last message :) zynx, in my opinion many compilers are just satisfying.. then no arguement will be possible abut speed... Zynx: yes, naturally it's possible to do faster code in asm, but that doesn't mean that any asm code ias always faster than C coder code ziggy, how will you meassutre the speed? wil the dev-time be included too? Ziggy better not have a contest! you know - STOS might win !! hehehe... (joke!) :)) asm is faster, no competition, if it's coded well red: not directly, but should be ratioed in to total tiem but C vs GFA etc. would be cool setok: well, you write the asm part of teh contest :) Setok that is true.. if I moved the same register to another 200 times and you did a a=b your routine would be say... 10 times faster :))) > Zynx: You should code transistors, you know. setok, c is faster than gfa in pointer ops but pretty equal in other ways because that is more OS dependent nolars hehe.. to much work for this guy at the moment :) but gotta stick with teh same machien to run the stuff on...to be fair > Zynx: Now who is talking about much work?!? reddie: yes, I know nolars I would need about... say... a couple of million transistors to do a rotation with zoom :) Zynx: nope, not necessarily. Good compilers use registers very cleverly > zynx: So??? Get on with it!! nah, a few thousand.. nah, a few thousand.. setok, another interesting test is to compare diffrent kinds of loops to each other... try that some time.. Zynx: for (n=0;n<=200;n++) a=b; could very well be quite close to asm *sigh* All the other channels are real boring. stu: of course. #atari rules so are we :) Setok nope - it expands to a one add and one compare or one sub and a tst. it would still be slower than a dbra :) > Student: join the agrument... :) discussion :) besieds, there cant be a aurgument i knwo im right :) Zynx: even so, it's not 10 times slower.. we can test it if you want. Just grab a new gnu C from somewhere I don't have a very new version of gnu C because I couldn't get the newer version installed right Ok, what exactly are we arguing about? The best programming language? Student: that, and just otherwise chatting about different programming languages Setok well - I was pushing it a bit.. to make my point.. but you do understand what I mean? student =) student, but we all know cobol is teh best :) The Best Programming Language = 010101001010110 Ha! Zynx: yes, though a clever compiler might still be able to do it in a quick asm method how about "B"? B rules hey... ... The best language is ofcourse the bodylanguage.. :) er... am I crazy or what? :)